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Our Pagan Kin in Christ .... continued

Our Pagan Kin in Christ .... continued

I read your article RE Kinship in Christ and subsequent comment, with much interest, and many things struck me about what readers had to say.
I took for granted that I would be allowed to, if I so wished, join the SAPC, with my Christian/Pagan spirituality. Boy was I gobsmacked, hurt and disappointed to read how the Pagan folk felt about that! Well, that much for finding community with Pagans. LM“Shortly after inception, the SAPC held poll and vote as to what to include in the Pagan Paths. This was decided by ALL members of the SAPC and is not arbitrary.”
When I later reflected on it, I became angry (and still am) ... as I realised how much alike Luke and some of his bunch are to the very Christian churches in SA that has also rejected me due to my belief in Pagan thought - what an eye-opening revelation. We are actually all bigots! No matter how hard we pretend not to be! LM “So sorry you get so angry and feel like a bigot, please be assured that I do not. The fact is that this was a communal decision, the point that I have re-opened it for debate in light of Erebos' questions should tell you something. We could all easily have ignored it as this subject was already debated at length. The discussion is not going to poll again, for that we need a 75% quorum request. By having this discussion, we are opening it up for just such a request. Should a quorum vote "yes" to the question of allowing further paths (Specifying would come later), then the entire issue would be re-opend. However, I can inform you that at this point. the "no" and "yes" are nearly equal. The "no's" outweigh the "yes".”
Luke’s initial argument does not hold any water, I mean society EVOLVES and so does its needs and wants. Surely the spiritual dilemma of two thousand years ago does not hold ground today anymore? LM “I speak of principles and use allegory, please try to look beyond the literal. Please re-read, an ancient dilemma is not the point. Your anger blinds you, the dilemma is mine.”
Why is it that one can never escape spiritual cliques anywhere? Is God(ess) not one with all, and us with them? Is this not a simple enough concept, and indeed a Pagan concept, that some Pagans have conveniently forgotten. LM “Yes indeed, this is stated clearly. To use this statement to qualify is tantamount to saying we are one with rapists, murderers, thieves and so forth. Please, this is simplistic at best and twisted at worst.” I mean really, does any of us really have the key that opens the "secret diaries of God", or has "paradise been redecorated". (Thanks to Koos Kombuis for these words). LM“You argue a point that nobody denies, in the interest of trying to twist what was never bent.”
I wonder whether the comments would have been different if the question at hand was related to Buddhists or some other faith. I feel very disillusioned and confused at the moment, which reinforces in me the idea that all forms of religion are bullsh#t, and we are much better off without it. LM“The question at hand was indeed referred to other paths such as you mention. The principle you ignore remains the same. It will offend the Christians and Buddhists to publically and officially acknowledge paths that these religions themselves deem heresies and offensive, in the mainstream.”
And for crying out loud, what does Satanism have to do with a Christian/Pagan path? It does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that the morals and beliefs of Satanism and Christianity are farther apart than the north and south poles - unless off course you want to be blown around by the winds of doctrine. LM“Please, nobody said this. Varied paths were mentioned by example. Why single out one?”
Come on Pagans, since when do you guys stumble upon the wiles of doctrine, you don’t even have such a thing. “The only thing you have accomplished in this missive is to throw accusations and do a lot of name-calling. If this suits your agenda, good for you.”
I would like to leave the leadership (whoever steers the ship?) of the SAPC with this: The only way to move forward on this is to ask yourself, “What would happen if everything you thought was 'wrong' was actually 'right'?" Every scientist knows about this. When something does not work a scientist sets aside all of the assumptions and starts over. LM“There is NEVER an "only way" to move forward dear Christian?Pagan? You will discover this once you get over your self-confessed anger and bigotry.”
All great discoveries have been made from a willingness, and ability, to not be right. And that's what's needed here. This was indeed a very difficult reality to face, I did, can you? LM“In your anger, you keep missing the point dear Christian?Pagan?. This entire discussion is based on that premise.”
As for my desire to continue on my new-found spiritual path (and I don’t care to label it, that’s nonsensical as one cannot label GOD), I am more committed than ever, as long as I don’t fall into similar traps as mentioned above. I suppose it is not that essential to "officially" belong to any body, as long as one stays true to one’s “Truth”. LM “If you truly do not care to label it, why do you write this "angry" letter? Why do you self-identify using a label that absolutely no Christian will accept, and will indeed find very offensive? Is it a desire to upset and offend Christians? Why should the Pagan community take part in your crusade to offend a mainstream religion?
Please do not take my comments as the views and opinions of the SAPC, it's members and affiliates. We are all allowed an opinion here.
I wish you sincere good luck on your quest.”

Luke Martin

wotanwulf's picture

But for being behind the times....

I find this Christian/pagan bloke's(or blokette's) letter a bit irritating. If this dude/dudette really associated him/herself with Paganism as he/she claims, he/she would have been a member of the Council a long time since. Methinks he/she is actually a Christian making use of Pagan rituals. On this issue: Narcisse, I am Heathen, which means, rest assure, I do not judge your beliefs. I do however judge your conduct.
So far I am not duly impressed.

Blessings

wotanwulf's picture

My vote

is no. My apologies for voting so late. I do not vote no to discriminate, or to polarize, and certainly not to be "verkramp"(for lack of a better word). We, in the SACP, are involved in a day to day struggle to be accepted as a legal religion, we have to guard on a day to day basis against the mudslinging of other religions in this country(worldwide, for that matter), or otherwise being ridiculed by anyone who believes the "ghost stories" about us out there...and yes, ridicule is a fierce weapon that is most certainly employed by the Big Brothers out there. I do not think a "free for all" type of policy, especially at this stage, would further the cause of the Council. It would not make other groups take us more seriously. It would not be in the best interest of the Council, or it's members. Therefore my vote of "NO" stands.

Til ars ok frithar

is Christianity pagan / Pagan ?

Regarding the topic 'Our Pagan kin in Christ' at http://www.pagancouncil.co.za/node/577 ...

I've come to the conclusion that any referendum by SAPC members should be focused on one question and one question only, that being, is Christianity a Pagan religion? We asked the same question before excluding Satanism without allowing any form of Satanic syncretism. Obviously neither Satanism nor Christianity are pagan or Pagan.

This does not however prevent Pagans from adopting customs and beliefs from other faiths if they so choose, so we should avoid, if at all possible, the perception that the SAPC won't permit its existing members from practicing their personal faiths as they see fit.

Erebos's picture

ANCIENT CHRIST-LIKE FIGURES

There are material, significant, and pervasive similarities between the Jesus Christ of the New Testament and other Dying God-figures (and/or Saviour-figures), and that these similarities are best explained by the hypothesis that the figure of Jesus is materially derived from (or heavily influenced by) these other Dying God/Saviour-figures..

This information is presented here for interest-sake only, and I make no claim to any of these "facts’" authenticity.
And the heading says "Christ-LIKE".

KRISHNA

• According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union.
• Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God.
• Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.
• Both were called Saviour, and the second person of the Trinity.
• Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter.
• Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.
• Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
• Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination.
• The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura.
• Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.
• Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.”
• Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.”
• Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.
• Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.”
• Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.
• Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.
• Both were meek, and merciful.
• Both were criticized for associating with sinners.
• Both forgave his enemies.

ROMULUS

• Romulus is born of a vestal virgin, which was a priestess of the hearth god Vesta sworn to celibacy.
• His mother claims that the divine impregnated her, yet this is not believed by the King.
• Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, are tossed in the river and left for dead. (A “slaughter of the innocents” tale which parallels that of Matthew 2:13-16).
• Romulus is hailed as the son of god.
• He is “snatched away to heaven” by a whirlwind (It is assumed that the gods took him), and he makes post mortem appearances.
• In his work Numa Pompilius, Plutarch records that there was a darkness covering the earth before his death (Just as there was during Jesus’ death according to Mark 15:33).
• He also states that Romulus is to be know afterwards as ‘Quirinus’; A god which belonged to the Archiac Triad (a “triple deity” similar to the concept of the Trinity).

DIONYSIS

• Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
• He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
• He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
• He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
• Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
• He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
• He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
• He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Saviour,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
• He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
• His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

HERACLES

• Heracles is the Son of a god (Zeus). It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of Heracles, just as Jesus is essentially his own grandpa, being both “The root and offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) as he is part of the triune God which is the father of Adam and eventually of Jesus.
• Both are doubly related to the Supreme God.
• Diodorus writes that, “For as regards the magnitude of the deeds which he accomplished it is generally agreed that Heracles has been handed down as one who surpassed all men of whom memory from the beginning of time has brought down an account; consequently it is a difficult attainment to report each one of his deeds in a worthy manner and to present a record which shall be on a level with labours so great, the magnitude of which won for him the prize of immortality.”
• Jesus is also said to have done a very large number of good works. John 21:25 says that: “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”
• Hera tries to kill Heracles as an infant by sending two serpents after him, yet Heracles survives by strangling them. This parallels Herod’s slaughter of the innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus (Matthew 2:13-16).
• Heracles makes a descent into Hades and returns from it with Theseus and Peirithoüs, just as Jesus descends into the “lower parts of the earth” or Hades (Ephesians 4:7-8); Though Jesus does not bring anyone up from it. Heracles’ body is not found and he is assumed to have been taken by the gods:” After this, when the companions of Iolaüs came to gather up the bones of Heracles and found not a single bone anywhere, they assumed that, in accordance with the words of the oracle, he had passed from among men into the company of the gods.”

GLYCON

• In the middle of the 100s AD, out along the south coast of the Black Sea, Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who: came to Earth through a miraculous birth,
• was the Earthly manifestation of divinity,
• came to earth in fulfilment of divine prophecy,
• gave his chief believer the power of prophecy,
• gave believers the power to speak in tongues, p
• erformed miracles,
• healed the sick,
• and raised the dead.

ZOROASTER/Zarathustra

• Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
• He was baptized in a river. I
• n his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
• He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
• He began his ministry at age 30.
• Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
• He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
• He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
• He had a sacred cup or grail.
• He was slain.
• His religion had a eucharist.
• He was the “Word made flesh.”
• Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Saviour, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

ATTIS OF PHRYGIA

• Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
• He was considered the saviour who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
• His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers.
• He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
• On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
• He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

HORUS

• Born of a virgin, Isis.
• Only begotten son of the God Osiris.
• Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star.
• Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21).
• In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human.
• Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.”
• An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.”
• Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30.
• Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded.
• Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind.
• Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

QUETTZACOATLl

The tradition of Quetzalcoatl originated in Central America near the time of Christ’s crucifixion. Various written accounts establish the following beliefs regarding Quetzalcoatl that were prevalent in Mesoamerica during the sixteenth century.

• He was born of a virgin
• He was associated with a new star3.
• He performed miracles
• He taught the practice of baptism
• He was associated with the cross
• He was a symbol of death and resurrection.
• He sent disciples to preach His word
• He prophesied of future events
• He promised He would come a second time
• He was the Creator of all things
• He caused a great destruction in Central America circa 34 A.D
• His children will become lords and heirs of the earth

TAMMUZ

Tammuz-Adonis is the Mesopotamian archetype of the dying and risen-again fertility god. His cult involved ritual mourning. Tammuz is paralleled to Christ in particular by his epithet, the shepherd.

APPOLKONIUS OF TYRA

What about Apollonius of Tyana? Apollonius was pretty similar to Jesus in that he healed people, was put to death for his religious beliefs, and came back to life.

ETC..

And despite similarities,

And despite similarities, each of these remain distinct and individual - they are not each other. :-)

Yes, I recognize the shared esoteric symbolism, but as a Pagan I do not embrace Jesus as a resurrected saviour. I find no meaningful relationship between Jesus / Christ and Dionysus, and certainly no reason to embrace Christianity as yet another form of Paganism.

Lest we forget, the "father" of Jesus requires that no worship be given any other God.

Morgause's picture

CONTINUE VOTING PLEASE

Thank you Damon. I think the points you've raised are extremely valid.
I'd like to bring to everyone's attention that the Council has allowed even a "non-member" (Narcisse) to post his/her opinion, through a member of the Council (Erebos)and to go as far as calling the Convener and "his bunch" bigots.
In the name of "transparency" I have deliberately omitted to moderate the post as is my responsibility to do in the case of "name calling" and "flaming", for I wish everything to be above board and fair. Every opinion has the right to be expressed at the SAPC round table.
Furthermore, I believe Narcisse failed to notice that this was Luke's initiative to commence with, after having read and digested Erebos' article.
Folk, we need to maintain our attention focused on the importance of the issue at hand and keep the votes coming in, without allowing ego to obfuscate our reasoning.
If you haven't yet cast your vote, please do so now. Voting closes on 31 January.

BB
Morgause Fonteléve
SAPC Registrar

Erebos's picture

PERMISSION GRANTED

I think that I should mention that before posting Narcisse's letter, I did ask for permission. And permission was granted.

ALSO:
As the poll regarding inclusivity stands I vote NO.

Erebos

no

I too have voted no.

Morgause's picture

Indeed

Indeed. Permission was requested and granted both by Luke and myself. Despite the letter's contrary nature and clear anti- SAPC sentiments displayed by it's writer, we felt that in the name of transparency, that it was important to allow it to be posted in its entirety.

Thank for voting Erebos. May I ask you to also do so by mailing your vote to info@pagancouncil.co.za. (For counting purposes once the polls are closed.)

BB
Morgause Fonteléve
SAPC Registrar

Charles's picture

Clarification/objection.... from a curmudgeon, if you will.

While we're on the subject of clarifying our positions, I am not happy with the title of this particular thread. Christians of any water are not my 'kin in Christ'.

I do not believe in the existence of any Christ, and while Christians (carefully selected ones, of course, like the I&J peas of yore) might be my kin, they're not so in the name of their God.