A number of recent discussions with Christians interested in Paganism and magick - and questions whether two seemingly disparate religions/spiritualities can form a dual but unified spirituality - got me thinking about Christo-Paganism and similar paths.
Christo-Pagans, Christo-Druids, Jewitchery, Christian Witches, Christo-Eclectic, Trinitarian Wiccan, Christo-Hellenics, etc are often derided within and without Pagandom as people who simply want to hold on to what is familiar, while attempting to grab onto something which is new - kind of standing with one foot on the cross and the other in the cauldron.
So I started wondering whether Christo-Pagan paths are mix-and-matches or merely mixed-mismatches?
Looking back into history, it seems that what is now termed Christo-Paganism has been with us for a long time in one form or another, thanks to syncretism. Syncretism is the attempt to reconcile disparate or contrary beliefs and melding practices of various schools of thought - as such syncretism functioned as a main feature in many ancient pagan religions.
Overall, Hellenistic culture in the age that followed Alexander the Great itself showed syncretist features, essentially blending of Persian, Anatolian, Egyptian and Etruscan-Roman elements within an Hellenic formula - the Egyptian god Amun developed as the Hellenized Zeus Ammon after Alexander the Great went into the desert to seek out Amun’s oracle at Siwa. Such identifications derive from interpretatio graeca, the Hellenic habit of identifying gods of disparate mythologies with their own.
The Romans, identifying themselves as common heirs to a very similar civilisation, identified Greek deities with similar figures in the Etruscan-Roman tradition, though without usually copying cult practices.
Gods of the Hellenistic period found also wide favour in Rome: Serapis, Isis and Mithras, for example. Cybele as worshipped in Rome essentially represented a syncretic East Mediterranean goddess. The Romans imported the Greek god Dionysus into Rome, where he merged with the Latin mead and wine god Liber.
Likewise, when the Romans encountered Celts and Teutons, they mingled these peoples’ Northern gods with their own, creating Apollo Sucellos and Mars Thingsus (Mars of the war-assembly), among many others. In the Germania, the Roman historian Tacitus speaks of Teutonic worshippers of Hercules and Mercury; most modern scholars tentatively identify Hercules as Thor and Mercury as Odin.
So what is this Christo-Pagan path? Isn’t it a contradiction?
In the early years of the “new religion” Christianity, many of our European ancestors were “Christo-Pagans”, followers of folk religions and perhaps even ethnic-Christians or ethnic-Pagans.
In Europe the historical Dual Faith period lasted from approximately 450 CE to 1100 CE, and during that period many of our European ancestors practiced both their pagan/folk ancestral religions and the “new religion” coming from Rome.
More ancient Christo-Paganism also includes Gnosticism, which had Christian, pagan, and Islamic variants at the turn of the 1st millennium of the Common Era – but, although Gnosticism has been considered by scholars to originate as a branch of Christianity, alternate theories have proposed traces of Gnostic systems existed some centuries before the Christian Era.
The Gaelic literati of the early Middle Ages (pre-Norman invasion of the 12th century) saw no problem mixing and matching as it were, but still saw there being one path to heaven - a kind of “no matter what you do or think, it is your approach that matters” way of thinking. They freely included enormous amounts of pre-Christian information in their work. Likewise, there is some evidence that the druids freely incorporated other teachings in their own spirituality as well.
A “Mass in the Morning and the Moon at Night” made sense in medieval Europe, and it is obvious that the Pagan and Christian paths have been intertwined for many centuries.
Many cultures adopted Jesus as an additional divinity: the Norse referred to him as the White Christ. Many Slavic cultures adapted their myths of gods such as Beylobog (god of light) and Czernobog – (god of death and darkness) by renaming the main characters “God” and “Satan”; pagan and Christian beliefs lived alongside each other for quite some time.
Throughout the Jewish (or Old) Testament, there are references to Astoreth, a variation of the Ancient Mother Goddess Inanna of pre-Babylonian Sumer. The Song of Solomon may in fact be derived from the annual spring wedding ritual between the King of Babylon and the High Priestess of Astoreth.
Within the New (or Christian) Testament, Mary mother of Jesus may be compared to the Goddess Isis protecting her son Horus beneath her wings. Her traditional blue and white robes are also reminiscent of Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom - wisdom is referred to as “she” throughout the Book of Proverbs.
There are in fact many other commonalities between what many seem to think of as incompatible religions.
“The Kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21). Jesus also said, “If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) kingdom is within you and it is outside you…
…Now, compare this to the Charge of the Star Goddess: “... for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.”
Thus, the idea that some form of Christian belief and some form of Pagan belief are by definition incompatible fails a very simple historical test (and there are many more examples of this form of syncretism throughout the world). People have been taking bits of their old paths that matter to them and incorporating them into new ones for a very long time.
What about magick and Witchcraft within a Pagan-Christian contex?
There are various forms of Christian Mysticism. Esoteric Christianity is a term which refers to an ensemble of spiritual currents which regard Christianity as a mystery religion, and profess the existence and possession of certain esoteric doctrines or practices, hidden from the public but accessible only to a narrow circle of “enlightened”, actively engage in magickal practices
Other examples of established syncretic systems that link elements of Christianity and magick are that of African American hoodoo, Vodun, Santeria , Macumba, Candomble and Lucumi, which sometimes combine cultural traditions with Christian prayers and psalms in magickal practice. Sometimes the saints were a cover for Pagan gods to help people avoid persecution for their beliefs.
Taking it a bit further and closer within contemporary Paganism, can there be such a path a Christian-Wicca? Isn’t the definition of Wiccan in direct opposition of the definition for Christian. You can not be both a monotheist and a polytheist.
Trinitarian Wicca is an American Wicca path that works with the Christian Pantheon - it is polytheistic, highly influenced by the Alexandrian and the Dianic Traditions and a form of non-dogmatic Christianity.
This tradition tends to favour many Goddesses from Gnosticism, Kabbalah, the Pseudopigrapha (a collection of early Jewish and some Jewish-Christian writings composed between 200 BCE and 200 CE, not found in the Bible or rabbinic writings), and early cross patterns between the Jewish and Greco-Roman pantheons: Sophia, Shekinah, the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, Lilith, Asherah, etc.
Trinitarian Wicca (or Christian-Wicca) is described as being “the merger of the Christian Trinity of the God, Goddess, and the Sun (Son) God Jesus.” Saints, angels, and elemental spirits also supplement the ritual and spell techniques of Trinitarian Wicca.
Christo-Paganism is what European folk culture was for centuries: a mix between pagan folk beliefs and folk people’s understanding of Christianity. Much of European folk craft (witchcraft) was also a mix of paganism and Christianity. This is still the case today in Italy, Greece, Ireland, central- and south America, etc. In fact, it was not until the late 19th/early 20th century that a witchcraft and occultist revival took place in Europe in which the elements of Christianity were stripped out.
So can one take Christianity and Witchcraft and slap them together and call it a path? I think yes, but not without a lot of compromise. I think that, for obvious reasons, for one to become a Christian Witch, one’s understanding of Christianity must be relatively liberal, for taking the Bible as one’s only source for spiritual knowledge would be immensely difficult when incorporated with magickal and Pagan practice.
Another more flexible definition of Christianity is necessary: a path that incorporates a version of Jesus, god and the holy spirit, either as three separate entities with one divine essence or three aspects of the All could potentially still offer some space for magick.
Christo-Paganism may be controversial but is that any reason to not follow what you believe in? In all fairness, Pagans worship the Egyptian pantheon, Celtic pantheon, Norse pantheon, etc. So why not have Pagans worshipping the Christian pantheon?
Remember: “It is (only) the patriarchal gods that are jealous and who demand no other gods before them.” As Pagans we shouldn’t make such demands.
SPOURCES:
http://wicca.timerift.net/christianwicca.shtml; http://www.christopagan.net/; http://bunny-puppy.net/folk/christopagan.html; MedLibrary.org; The SBNS Online Forum; www.magdalene.org/; http://witchychristian.tripod.com:80/ChristianWitch.html; http://www.crystal-forest.com/articlesessays.html; http://www.paganspace.net/profiles/blogs/a-list-of-definitions-that; www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/ETP/IIII.html;
http://bunny-puppy.net/folk/christopagan.html;
http://www.paganspace.net/group/trinitarianwicca;
http://feu.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090523103414AAyOeKE;
http://witchychristian.tripod.com/ChristianWitch.html;
http://jewitchery.com/essays.html;
http://www.witchcraft.com.au/christian-witch-craft.html;
http://jeffdiehl.com/;
http://www.neopagan.net/:
Wikipedia;
Witchvox
in response to the Christo-Pagan thread by Erebos below
Tue, 01/19/2010 - 11:02 — Damon Leffin response to the Christo-Pagan thread by Erebos below... sorry, but spaghetti doesn't read well :-)
---
And the lesson here is? Never take anything for granted.
quote: "I would like to leave the leadership (whoever steers the ship?) of the SAPC with this: The only way to move forward on this is to ask yourself, “What would happen if everything you thought was 'wrong' was actually 'right'?" "
i.e. that the Christian God does exist, that Satan is a real entity, and that Witches are his servants? Is that the kind of scenario you are attempting to paint without actually preaching at us?
Perhaps this is precisely the kind of thing Pagans, who hold several very distinct pre-Christian doctrines of faith (not, no doctrine, as you have stated), are attempting to avoid on this council?
addition 5:35pm
I've come to the conclusion that any referendum by SAPC members should be focused on one question and one question only, that being, is Christianity a Pagan religion? We asked the same question before excluding Satanism without allowing any form of Satanic syncretism. Obviously neither Satanism nor Christianity are pagan or Pagan.
This does not however prevent Pagans from adopting customs and beliefs from other faiths if they so choose, so we should avoid, if at all possible, the perception that the SAPC won't permit its existing members from practicing their personal faiths as they see fit.
Not an Easy One
Fri, 01/15/2010 - 15:07 — Le CorbeauI wish this issue was simple enough for me to give an answer that does not require much thought!
The Christo-Pagan path was one I trod for a while, as I made a transition from being someone who was so deeply involved in the institutional church to being a hidden child of the Goddess. It is a path with which I can identify, as it is never a path that is embarked upon at a whim.
I also know someone who is Jewish (albeit quite secular) but incorporates elements of Paganism in her faith as she tries to reconcile various areas of her life. Indeed, her exposure to Paganism has helped her to awaken to the faith of her parents in a more positive and healthy way than before.
That said, I am very wary of satanists (recognising that there is apparently a difference between the 'intellectual' satanists and the cat-killing reprobates who get terribly excited about diabolism. Either way, both are actually Christian heresies) who would identify as Pagans. I feel that there are times when we need to 'look to the rock from which we were hewn, the soil from which we were digged' - those good human beings who set about reviving and reconstructing Paganism (people like Gardner, Valiente, Sanders, etc) were always very cautious to point out that Paganism is the worship of the Old Gods of Europe, and that the Christian satan does not have any part in this.
Ms Valiente, in her introduction to Evan John Jones' book, 'Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed', had this to say about satan: "...by constantly telling us that there is a great power of evil, personified as Satan, which people can invoke and serve for reward, these good Christians are unwittingly creating the very concept that they denounce... They are creating upon the astral plane a huge thought-form. But this monstrosity is nothing but a mock-up, like the frightful 'demons' created in some film studio for a horror movie. It is time that we demolished it and threw the remains onto the rubbish-heap of human thought."
Also, I would be concerned about allowing Goths (i refer to people who are part of that subculture, but have no clearly-defined spiritual path, not Pagans who are part of the subculture and have an understanding that the subculture is secular in nature) and so-called Vampires into the Council. We do not want to turn into a circus side-show.
Ultimately, I have chosen to vote 'No'. I feel that we should embrace and work along side people of all faiths (well, almost all faiths), but that, as a Pagan Council, I think that we need to maintain an identity that is clearly Pagan - Nature-based, worshipping the Old Gods of life and love.
Thank you for sharing your
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 19:52 — Damon LeffThank you for sharing your well-considered thoughts on this question Graeme.
SA PAGAN COUNCIL MEMBERSHIP
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 13:30 — FeyFandGreetings,
As a member of the SAPC Executive Council who represents the Celestine Circle of Southern Africa, I would like to state unequivocally that I oppose the inclusion of non-Pagan religions in the SAPC. Satanists, for example, are apostate Christians. Do we now embrace them, in addition to other religions which still take their belief structure from mainstream monotheistic religions? I think not. We call ourselves the PAGAN Council for a reason...
Fey Fand
High Priestess of the Celestine Circle
Cell 073 803 2195
Email feyfand@celestinecircle.za.net
I understand the desire for
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 07:07 — rowan_1I understand the desire for unity and to bring everyone together under the wider, more loosely defined umbrella of Paganism – this does not however mean
that I condone it.
To be perfectly honest, I find the whole concept of
“Christo-Druids/Jewitchery/Christian Witches” insulting.
To practice witchcraft and varying forms of magick is not an exclusively Pagan practice and the practice of such does not make one Pagan by default.
Being Pagan is something I take great pride in. It’s not merely a word or a concept or even anything that makes now makes you part of a “greater community” and the latter should not be a motivation for associating yourself
with such groups.
The Christians have their path, as do the Jewish. One can be Pagan and practice High Magick, but just being a practitioner of High Magick does not make
you Pagan.
I bear no animosity towards these individuals, in fact, I have many friends who define themselves within these lines, but it is my firm belief that even with
all the commonalities we may have between us, we still do not fall “in the same category” (for lack of a better word).
Henry
Those Who Worship Pagan Gods!
Thu, 12/24/2009 - 11:35 — Luke MartinDear Erebos
Thank you for your thought-provoking article. It is challenging and very important to our Movement. It opens the mind and engenders empathy within our selves towards those who walk a different Spiritual Path.
My reading material is long since dictated by ancient Pagan Philosophers, Emperors, Kings and writers. Amongst my favourite are the writings of the ancient Roman Emperors. A personal luminary is Emperor Julian of Rome. His zeal for the Old Gods and Paganism is an example to all who call themselves Pagans. His short reign coincided with the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity, post Constantinus. Most Pagan Temples had been converted to Christian Churches or were abandoned. It was his calling to reinstate Paganism in the Roman Empire. He refered to the Christian churches as "charnel houses", the Christians as Galelians and atheists and their Triple God as a false God.
I quote from his auto-biography, circa 362CE.
“In September, with Maximus’ help, I composed the most important edict of my reign so far; concerning education. I have always felt that much of the success the Galileans have had was due to their mastery of Hellenic writing and argument. Skilled in “our religion”, they turned our weapons against us. Now we never asked our priests to teach the writings of Mathew Mark Luke and John and not merely because they wrote bad Greek. No. Our priests do not believe in the Nazarene-God, therefore why should we offend those who do believe in him by teaching the works of his apologists? But Galileans teach our classics in every university in the world. They teach them as models of style and wit, while discarding what they say as untrue. This is intollerable. I therefore decree that no Galilean be allowed to teach the classics.”
There is no denying that, in fact, ALL religion is syncretic. From Neanderthal man’s simplistic yet touching placement of flowers in a crude grave, to the most complex of religious ceremonies, we see spiritual syncretic evolution in homo-sapiens. Indubitably witches have existed and exist in every creed and culture. Pagan Hellenistic thought is entertwined. It is safe to say that Western Civilization is based upon Hellenistic culture, thought, philosophy, art, science, belief. The Global Village sees more widespread spiritual belief today, than at any other time in history. Does this imply that we as Pagans should incorporate ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL?
This Council does not believe so. We have had polls and discussions on this subject. It was concluded that it would be to our disadvantage to adopt an all-embracing policy. For this reason this Council cannot list those who rightfully self-identify as Pagan-Satanists, Christian-Wiccans, etc.
As Emperor Julian pointed out, this is offensive to those who claim the mainstream religions. The SAPC certainly does not wish to offend mainstream Christianity, by counting amongst its number Christian-Pagans. The Council follows a simple yet profound statement that “Pagans are those who worship Pagan Gods and Goddesses”. Mainstream Christianity does not see Jesus Christ as a Pagan God, therefore, this Council cannot offend them, by calling their God a Pagan God. The fact that Jesus Christ is a syncretic amalgamation of Pagan dying-resurrecting Godmen is besides the point.
Therefore, the Council respectfully distances itself from the myriad Spiritual Paths that self-identify in a fashion that demonstrably links itself with a mainstream religious movement that does not consider itself Pagan.
The Coucil furthermore accords Christian-Pagans, etc. all respect and the right to self-identify and encourages them to form their own Spiritual Movement.
BB
Luke Martin
SAPC Convener
ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTION...
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 19:08 — ErebosDear Luke,
I did say:
"...for one to become a Christian Witch, one’s understanding of Christianity must be relatively liberal..."
and
"Another more flexible definition of Christianity is necessary: a path that incorporates a version of Jesus, god and the holy spirit, either as three separate entities with one divine essence or three aspects of the All could potentially still offer some space for magick."
So, perhaps the question is not whether Christo-Pagans are Pagan... but whether they are Christian...
:)
Erebos
What a phenomenal article!
Fri, 12/25/2009 - 16:31 — MorgauseWhat a phenomenal article! Thank you Erebos! Both you gentlemen have made me think. I pondered on the thoughts engendered and I found that I agree and disagree with both of you gentlemen.
Paganism is multi-diverse but NOT all-inclusive “umbrella” term. The SAPC is a legally recognized religion with Priests/Priestesses and RMO’s amongst its members. It is an independent legal entity and Luke is its porta voce (mouth-piece). As an independent legal entity, self-defined as a unifying body of like-minded Pagans, the Council may distance itself from both mainstream and any religious movements irrespective of individual’s members’ opinions, and this it did for the reasons Luke explained (our work with the NILC, the MRM, SAFCEI, etc.)
Like every member of the Council I believe in freedom of religion and in the right to freedom of association. For this reason too the SAPC “encourages the cross pollination of groups and individuals, remembering to respect each others’ traditions without attempting to enforce our own”.
As a founding member of the SAPC, I would have liked to have seen its Round Table being the debating place of ALL traditions, perhaps even these syncretic, further-removed-from-our-current-ideology traditions. (I’m a bit of a mother-hen figure).
I also realize that nothing is ever as clear-cut as “Pagans are those who worship Pagan Gods”. Controversial as Christo-Pagans and Trinitarian Wicca sound, I was raised being accustomed (in various degrees practiced by different families) to “this mix-and-match” mentality in Santeria and Stregheria. The religion I practice (Religio Romana) syncretically included Hellenistic, Egyptian, Celtic and Etruscan philosophy and pantheons in its hey day. In my opinion, you are either a Reconstructionist (who strive to historically reconstruct and keep pure cultural and religious practices of ancient Hellas for example) or, as Erebos said, we are all “borrowers” in one way or another. I realize too that interestingly enough the SAPC (due to its collective nature), is already an “Eclectic” Pagan Religious Group.
Should there therefore still be a “line” drawn and a limit defined? The polls showed that this is vital. My personal rose-tinted-glasses-vision is just that, “personal”, and in face of the “big picture” I am obliged to set aside personal vision and align myself with majority decisions which are not dictated by all-loving-maternal-urges to include all the Goddess’ children in one movement, but to do what is logical and practical for the Collective. Our aims and principles are paramount and the only way to protect them is to act cohesively.
As the SAPC seeks co-operation with other religions, it too would seek co-operation and would openly encourage these groups to self-define and form a Council. Like Luke I do not begrudge Christo-Pagans, Wiccan Trinitarians, Jewitches, etc. their right to self-identify and group.
BB
Morgause Fonteléve
Registrar
Is this Fascism?
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 16:21 — Luke MartinI was daydreaming. In this world between worlds, it dawned upon me that our stance on this matter is not “cut and dry”. As daydreams tend to go, it was disjointed, illusory and perhaps apocalyptic. Without going into the details the conclusions I came to are thus:
It is all well and good to have criteria, however, do these criteria open the door to “fascism”? e.g. if one of the criteria of the membership of the SAPC were to be “human”, what would happen if our criteria for human did not fit all humans? What would happen if a “human” asked for membership and we turned around and declined it because “to be human means x,y,z…”? To elaborate, if the SAPC ‘s criteria for “human” stated that one must have “teeth ” to be counted as human this would preculude all humans who have lost their teeth and therefore prohibit their membership. What about those with false teeth? What about those born without teeth?
I’m left with a great dilema and a disquieting sense of fascism.
May the Gods provide answers.
BB
Luke Martin
SAPC Convener
Religious Fascism?
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 03:29 — MorgauseThis is indeed a perplexing dilemma: the words dictatorship, stringent controls, suppression of what diametrically opposite ideologies, rejection of the different, and a policy of belligerent spiritual "patriotism" ... are hardly what we had in mind when we set up the Council.
It is imperative that we all discuss this matter again.
BB
Morgause
SAPC Registrar
round table
Thu, 01/07/2010 - 10:54 — Damon LeffIt is my firm belief that this Council was established to be inclusive of all who identify as Pagans, irrespective of how this is defined or practiced. We must embrace religious diversity within our religious community - we don't individually need to approve of or agree with - but we do need to create room for individual expression and freedom of choice.
I would encourage the Council to steer clear of formalizing exclusive or exclusionary doctrine. Its primary focus should remain facilitating diversity under the Paganism banner.
INCLUSIVENESS
Thu, 01/07/2010 - 15:14 — Luke MartinIn light of Erebos, Damon and Morgause's (all of whom I hold in highest esteem) comments on this topic I am going to forthwith call for a motion to revise the membership criteria and Pagan Paths of the SAPC.
BB
Luke Martin
SAPC Convener
As a member of the SAPC
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 13:37 — FeyFandAs a member of the SAPC Executive Council who represents the Celestine Circle of Southern Africa, I would like to state unequivocally that I oppose the inclusion of non-Pagan religions in the SAPC. Satanists, for example, are apostate Christians. Do we now embrace them, in addition to other religions which still take their belief structure from mainstream monotheistic religions? I think not. We call ourselves the PAGAN Council for a reason...
And while I respect everyone's rights to follow their own paths, I also believe they should form their own Councils...
Fey Fand
High Priestess of the Celestine Circle
Cell 073 803 2195
Email feyfand@celestinecircle.za.net
Inclusiveness
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 07:45 — EvylShnukumsThis will require some thought. I strongly support inclusiveness, self-definition and freedom of association. Yet I am wary of throwing the doors open for all and sundry.
I totally "get" Christo-Paganism. I have read numerous accounts of how "the new religion grew within the old", and I personally recognise Christ as a source of spiritual wisdom and a figure worthy of emulation. I also consider myself a mostly secular Pagan and believe there are many of us whose particulr type of reverence for the divine would not qualify as worship in some people's book.
I also understand that self-defined groups tend to be, well, rather loosely defined.
However I would be wary of people who self-identify as Satanists, Vampyres, Goths (I am an old goth and I have spent years explaining to people that goth is a subculture and has nothing to do with any particular belief system) etc. just attaching themselves to Paganism without reflection. Do they self-define as Pagans? Why? What is their understanding of Paganism? Why do they want to group themselves with Paganism?
Some adherence to the main ideology/ies may be an inherent requirement. I have sympathy with the anarchist cause but do not label myself an anarchist because I do not feel that our ideologies converge enough. I could not honestly define myself as a vegan if I did not give up all animal products.
When people ask me what Paganism is I tell them that the short answer is: seeing the divine in all living things, and seeking to celebrate and respect all life. I strongly feel that if your life's philosophy does not include some idea of nature-based divinity or spirituality, and some ethical code flowing from this respect, that it is not reconcilable with what I believe to be Paganism.
My immediate thoughts would be to include in the definition people who follow a syncretist path including Christo-Pagans, Jewish Pagans etc. but that there has to be some sort of logic behind people wanting to join the SAPC.
Anyway that's my 2c worth, not sure if it helps :)
Despite the fact that I
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 09:29 — Damon LeffDespite the fact that I would like the SAPC to embrace diversity, I must state categorically that Vampirism and Gothic urban culture are NOT in and of themselves Paganism nor forms of Pagan religion. One is a literary construct and the other is a fashion / fringe culture movement.
I'm not saying exclude goths. If you are a Pagan and happen to be a Goth, I would welcome you. If you're a Pagan who believes that you are a Vampire, you belong in Hollywood, not on the council.
Inclusion
Sat, 01/09/2010 - 14:13 — AspparaHow about we ask them what their belief system is based on? Is not ours based on the Rede? I can't see Vampires sticking to 'An it harm none, do as you will'... or Goths, or the other 'fringe' groups. I think it has to do with how you behave at the end of the day. Do you have Mother Earth's best interests at heart? Are you prepared to walk the walk? Pagans worship pagan gods, but they also see the divine in everything and everything in the divine!BB
Asppara Dantalian
Be as one
Feel as one
Breathe as one
Love as one
In or out?
Sun, 01/10/2010 - 08:51 — Rayne SeleneThis situation really got me thinking at one stage. My initial response was to say yes for all-inclusiveness but I have to admit that after careful consideration I came to see how short-sighted it would ultimately be. In an ideal world, having people of all persuasions on one forum would be great - interesting to say the least - but we're not in an ideal world. The SAPC has spent a long time trying to distance itself from the Satanic generalisation. To suddenly begin including them in legitimate Pagan debate is inviting trouble. As FeyFand wisely said: Perhaps they should create their own council. And I do feel that the same can be said for anyone who does not call themsleves Pagan. What are you doing on a Pagan site if you are not a Pagan? It makes no sense - unless of course the only intention is to ride the coat tails of another minority. Hypothetically, if a Satanist were to join this site under the guise of spiritual diversity and then get into some kind of legal tangle, can you imagine how detrimental it would be for us all if they were to stand up in public and claim that they were a member? The church needs no reason to abuse us, let them find a vampyre/Satanist masquerading around on a legally recognised Pagan forum and watch the walls crumble. It's a question of credibility... not of prejudice.
May the Gods guide us in this.
RE: MEMBERSHIP
Sun, 01/10/2010 - 16:14 — ErebosI think that in the context of SAPC membership it is important that we clearly differentiate between “all-inclusive” and “all-embracing”.
I believe that as Pagans we should, without any doubt, be “all-embracing” when it comes to the religious beliefs and spiritualities of others. However, this does not necessarily mean that we should be “all-inclusive” in the sense that anything goes as this would leave us with a dangerously ill-definition of Paganism.
While it is true that Paganism is a blanket-term referring to a wide variety of spiritual pursuits and religions, Paganism is also a sub-culture and as such it is a religious-, spiritual-, and social movement. But Paganism is also “a community of faiths that are kin to each other, not due to doctrinal similarities, but due to a shared cultural and ethical sense.”
As Morgause wrote in in a posting about morality and ethics, “Group morality develops out of shared sets of beliefs and concepts. The continued existence of the group therefore depends largely on the widespread conforming to its moral and ethical codes. ”
It is indeed that “shared cultural and ethical sense” that binds us and it should indeed not be ignored when it come to membership as many ill-defined groups who may self-identify as Pagans do not necessarily share our cultural and ethical sense.
As far as contemporary Christo-Paganism (and similar paths) is concerned, I personally believe that it is a revival of an ethic European religion based on both Pagan and Christian beliefs, and as such its members could qualify as Pagans - if not then neither should African traditional and syncretic religions/spiritualities and a myriad of European syncretic traditional paths that include Christian saints, angels and demons (in the Christian sense), etc.
Regarding satanism: I agree with FeyFand, satanists (mostly the theistics and dabblers) are apostate Christians and as such do not belong in the SAPC. However, it is important to note that most self-discribed satanists do not even identify with Paganism, and an interest in joining the SAPC is unlikely - perhaps except from dabblers who do not know the difference between Paganism and their brand of religion.
Furthermore, I do not think that Christo-Pagans should be mentioned in the same breath as satanists. This is rather reminiscent of how certain Christian groups mention Pagans and satanists in the same breath - a scare-tactic which we as Pagans should not make ourselves guilty of.
But nothing is, and should be, as cut and dry as a “Yes” or “No” vote when it comes to membership.
Membership applications should continue to be decided on merit and in accordance to the SAPC’s rules, as Luke wrote: “… the aims, objectives and code of principles of the SAPC will remain sacrosanct and ultimately determine membership”.
I wholeheartedly agree with this as long as it is done, in Damon’s words, while we continue “facilitating diversity under the Paganism banner”.
PS: If anyone is wondering - I am not a Christo-Pagan in any form or shape. I wrote the article as I found it an interesting subject - and I tend to like playing the "devil's advocate".
:)
LETTER FROM A CHRISTO-PAGAN
Mon, 01/18/2010 - 17:17 — ErebosI received this e-mail from a rather angry Christo-Pagan this morning and think it deserves to be read by other members of the SAPC:
Christo-Pagan Narcisse writes:
I read your article RE Kinship in Christ and subsequent comment, with much interest, and many things struck me about what readers had to say.
I took for granted that I would be allowed to, if I so wished, join the SAPC, with my Christian/Pagan spirituality. Boy was I gobsmacked, hurt and disappointed to read how the Pagan folk felt about that! Well, that much for finding community with Pagans.
When I later reflected on it, I became angry (and still am) ... as I realised how much alike Luke and some of his bunch are to the very Christian churches in SA that has also rejected me due to my belief in Pagan thought - what an eye-opening revelation. We are actually all bigots! No matter how hard we pretend not to be!
Luke’s initial argument does not hold any water, I mean society EVOLVES and so does its needs and wants. Surely the spiritual dilemma of two thousand years ago does not hold ground today anymore?
Why is it that one can never escape spiritual cliques anywhere? Is God(ess) not one with all, and us with them? Is this not a simple enough concept, and indeed a Pagan concept, that some Pagans have conveniently forgotten. I mean really, does any of us really have the key that opens the "secret diaries of God", or has "paradise been redecorated". (Thanks to Koos Kombuis for these words).
I wonder whether the comments would have been different if the question at hand was related to Buddhists or some other faith. I feel very disillusioned and confused at the moment, which reinforces in me the idea that all forms of religion are bullsh#t, and we are much better off without it.
And for crying out loud, what does Satanism have to do with a Christian/Pagan path? It does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that the morals and beliefs of Satanism and Christianity are farther apart than the north and south poles - unless off course you want to be blown around by the winds of doctrine.
Come on Pagans, since when do you guys stumble upon the wiles of doctrine, you don’t even have such a thing.
I would like to leave the leadership (whoever steers the ship?) of the SAPC with this: The only way to move forward on this is to ask yourself, “What would happen if everything you thought was 'wrong' was actually 'right'?" Every scientist knows about this. When something does not work a scientist sets aside all of the assumptions and starts over.
All great discoveries have been made from a willingness, and ability, to not be right. And that's what's needed here. This was indeed a very difficult reality to face, I did, can you?
As for my desire to continue on my new-found spiritual path (and I don’t care to label it, that’s nonsensical as one cannot label GOD), I am more committed than ever, as long as I don’t fall into similar traps as mentioned above. I suppose it is not that essential to "officially" belong to any body, as long as one stays true to one’s “Truth”.
MY ANSWER TO Christo-Pagan Narcisse:
When I wrote this article I was certain that it would receive much resistance as this specific topic has been fighting an uphill battle world-wide within much of the Pagan community. However, I still believe that Christo-Paganism (and similar paths) is the revival of an ancient ethic European religion based on both Pagan and Christian beliefs, and as such its members qualify as Pagans.
Although the strong "anti-" reaction did not surprise me, what did surprise me was mentioning Christo-Pagans in the same breath as satanists, which is ridiculous, however, it seems that the issue of allowing membership to Christo-Pagans has now been linked to allowing satanists as members of the SAPC.
I think that should a vote need to be taken regarding any spiritual path, it should be more specific. In other words: Should Satanism be recognised as a Pagan path? or Should Christo-Pagans be recognised as a Pagan path, etc, etc. However, if the poll (as is the case here it seems) is solely a vote on whether the SAPC should be all-inclusive (including all forms of satanism), I have no choice but to vote NO against such inclusivity.
I agree with you that we as humans should not even attempt to define the Divine, and because of that I think that you should under no circumstances give up on your personal journey.
I ADDED THIS IN A SUBSEQUENT EMAIL:
Please do not get disillusioned. Often the journey is more important than the destination as it is in the journey that we find ourselves.
By choice or by chance
Tue, 01/19/2010 - 07:57 — Rayne SeleneDear Christo-Pagan Narcisse
After having read your correspondence with Erebos this morning I thought deeply about what you said. I feel that I understand your anger and as such I’d like to attempt to elaborate on my own previous post… and perhaps shed some light on the truth of the issue at hand.
Firstly, please allow me to apologise for being too general in my opinions. When one wrestles with society on a daily basis (as I’m certain a lot of us are prone to doing), it is easy to lose sight of a lot things. Luke “and his bunch” take on a lot more than they get credit for sometimes I think, it’s a thankless job to tackle the government and to run one of the first legally recognised Pagan organisations at the same time – and as is the case with most thankless jobs, the smallest move that may be deemed incorrect by some will at some point cause problems. I respectfully implore you to keep in mind that while Luke may the captain of this ship, the crew tends to be pretty individualistic at times. Each opinion expressed here was formed by the person who wrote it.
I can only speak for myself, and the way I see things right now are thus:
Pagans in this country are fighting to be recognised as a legitimate religious group. Not only this, but we are aiming to prevent ourselves from being crushed beneath the almighty constitution and its corrupt leaders. So, while self definition is anyone’s right, perhaps I could take this opportunity to remind you that on a larger more public level, Pagans still struggle for this very same right. I don’t care what you are, I don’t care what you call yourself, if you identify with the Pagan way of life then I say Welcome. But before we can start allowing all on board we must have said board to welcome them onto, no? You are not wrong, and nor is your choice to be what you are. You don’t need anyone to tell you that. It is wrong of us to speak of your path in the same way we would speak of the Satanists, Vampyres and the Mutant Ninja Turtles - or whatever else is cropping up these days… No offence was meant. As I mentioned before, this is a matter of credibility not prejudice.
The SAPC at this point is trying to come up with some kind of screening process and it is this process that presents the catch 22. As has been the general consensus thus far, we cannot simply allow any and all to be a member. We will become another trash site for people to rummage through in the massive dumping ground called the Internet. While the SAPC should perhaps consider legitimate pseudo-Pagans (?) such as yourself, we must tread carefully. Do you not agree?
THREAD CONTINUED ABOVE
Tue, 01/19/2010 - 10:55 — Damon LeffTHREAD CONTINUED ABOVE DUE TO SPAGHETTI FACTOR